I do understand what consensus means. Mark Tauger, for example, is seen as the world’s foremost expert on the 1930s famine among liberal scholars, and is far from a communist. The duma does not actually back up what you believe. You really have nothing to go off of, do you? This is just MAGA-tier fact denial, it’s pure reflex.
The only guy I can cite is seen as an expert, but I won’t provide any proof, and the other 99 historians are all paid by the CIA. The Russian Duma are a bunch of Yankees and are lying, and all the documents are fabricated, please just look at this letter from Stalin which clearly exculpates Stalin.
It has religion vibes: “the Bible is true, it says so in the Bible and anything in the Bible is true”.
I cited multiple sources, and you seem to only be responding to one of my points when I responded to the entirety of yours. You also seem to have your talking points confused, because the Russian Duma does not say that the 1930s famine was a genocide:
The Russian Federation officially says that the Holodomor is not a genocide.[99] The State Duma passed a resolution in 2008 stating that the Holodomor should not be considered genocide, stating in part: “There is no historical proof that the famine was organized along ethnic lines. Its victims were millions of citizens of the Soviet Union, representing different peoples and nationalities living largely in agricultural areas of the country.”[100] The Russian government condemned the Soviet regime’s “disregard for the lives of people in the attainment of economic and political goals”, along with “any attempts to revive totalitarian regimes that disregard the rights and lives of citizens in former Soviet states”, while stating that “there is no historic evidence that the famine was organized on ethnic grounds.”[101]
Per Wikipedia. The right-wing post-soviet government declared it a problem of mismanagement to discredit socialism as socialism is still popular in Russia and would hurt their present capitalist class, but were insistent even then not to call it a genocide, because there’s no evidence. Even Kotkin admits that it wasn’t intentional nor engineered. You have no proof nor any idea what you’re talking about, again, it’s all reflex from you. It’s just MAGA on your part. Again, what’s the point? To convince me? Never going to happen with this level of “argument.” To convince others? Nobody else is here agreeing with you.
Since you seem to want direct sources, here’s a link to 3 PDFs of Tauger’s work, and you can check historians like Grover Furr’s work on the 1930s famine as well. I simply went with Tauger because he is more accepted among liberal historians as the foremost expert, but if we reference explicitly communist historians there are far more.
For example, Chinese scholars like Li Yan and Shen Lihua both affirm Tauger’s point, that there was no deliberate famine, but instead that it was a combination of weather disaster, sabotage, and mismanagement. None of this points to genocide or settler-colonialism, in fact the Soviet government was overwhelmingly supportive of Ukraine throughout its existence and treated it like the poster child of soviet socialism.
You really don’t have any clue what you’re talking about, do you? You were the one that brought up the Duma, I referenced actual scholars, including firmly anti-communist scholars like Kotkin. Truth doesn’t matter to you in the slightest, just using historic tragedy to bat for billionaires and a predatory system of capitalism. You aren’t even trying to convince anyone, so why bother?
I already admitted to all genocides committed by capitalists, so I don’t know how I’m defending them. You really see this a sports team thing, right?
BTW lol @ “scholars”
I don’t ignore the 99%, lmao. You only count western opinion for one, and secondly western opinion is contested, with the best research pointing to it not being intentional. You have absolutely nothing.
No, I linked to half a dozen sources affirming my point, and pointed out that even Wikipedia affirms the sources as legitimate. Wikipedia is not a source. You are allergic to scholarly research.
To be clear, Wikipedia isn’t my source, it’s a link to essentially the western liberal bible affirming that my sources are legitimate scholars respected in their field. My sources are Mark Tauger, Grover Furr, Kotkin, Li Yan, and Shen Lihua. Still, let’s copy and paste the 2 paragraphs, including the footnotes:
[a]Researchers who state that the famine was unintentional and did not aim at genocide still agree that the famine was not caused by natural crop failure, and so use words like “man-made famine” and “organised famine” to emphasize this fact.[1][2][3] Most researchers agree that the famine was caused by social factors and government policies.[4]
This states that, among western historians (who are the only ones Wikipedia references, curiously), there is no settled debate on whether it was intentional and thus genocide, or unintentional and due to mismanagement.
Moving forward, here are the paragraphs in the Wikipedia article:
The Holodomor, a 1932–1933 man-made famine,[a] killed 3.3–5 million ethnic Ukrainian people in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic (as part of the Soviet Union),[5][6][7] included in a total of 5.5–8.7 million perished in the broader Soviet famine of 1930–1933.[8][9][10] At least 3.3 million ethnic Ukrainians died as a result of the famine in the USSR.[11] Scholars debate whether there was an intent to starve millions of Ukrainians to death or not.[12]
While scholars are in consensus that the cause of the famine was man-made,[a] the topic remains a significant issue in modern politics with historians disputing whether Soviet policies in the era constitute genocide. Specifically, scholarly debate of the question centres around whether or not the Holodomor was intentional and therefore constitutes a genocide under the Genocide Convention.[13] Broadly speaking, Russian historians are generally of the opinion that the Holodomor did not constitute a genocide. Among Ukrainian historians the general opinion is that it did constitute a genocide. Western historians hold varying views.[14] Most scholars who reject the argument that state policy in regard to the famine was genocidal do not absolve Joseph Stalin or the Soviet regime as a whole from guilt for the famine deaths and still view such policies as being ultimately criminal in nature.[15][16][17]
So, in total, Wikipedia does not consider the opinion of non-western scholars to be relevant in any manner, and of the relevant scholars Tauger is referenced as an authority on the matter. Wikipedia is already highly flawed by explicitly rejecting non-western scholars, but even Wikipedia’s flawed analysis does not line up with what you say, and in fact lines up with what I’ve said, which I will copy and paste yet again:
Even serious liberal scholars believe it to have been a combination of adverse weather conditions and mismanagement. For instance, Mark Tauger wrote:
[data] indicate that the famine was real, the result of a failure of economic policy, of the ‘revolution from above,’ rather than of a ‘successful’ nationality policy against Ukrainians or other ethnic groups.
Tauger believes it was a failure of economic policy, not an intentional attack on ethnic Ukrainians. The 1930s famine was a combination of drought, flooding, and mismanagement. Further, the Kulaks, wealthy bourgeois farmers, magnified matters by killing their own crops in the midst of a famine rather than letting the Red Army collectivize them. The Politburo was also kept in the dark about how bad the famine was getting:
From: Archive of the President of the Russian Federation. Fond 3, Record Series 40, File 80, Page 58.
Excerpt from the protocol number of the meeting of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist party (Bolsheviks) “Regarding Measures to Prevent Failure to Sow in Ukraine, March 16th, 1932.
The Political Bureau believes that shortage of seed grain in Ukraine is many times worse than what was described in comrade Kosior’s telegram; therefore, the Political Bureau recommends the Central Committee of the Communist party of Ukraine to take all measures within its reach to prevent the threat of failing to sow [field crops] in Ukraine.
Signed: Secretary of the Central Committee – J. STALIN
Letter to Joseph Stalin from Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine regarding the course and the perspectives of the sowing campaign in Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
There are also isolated cases of starvation, and even whole villages [starving]; however, this is only the result of bungling on the local level, deviations [from the party line], especially in regard of kolkhozes. All rumours about “famine” in Ukraine must be unconditionally rejected. The crucial help that was provided for Ukraine will give us the opportunity to eradicate all such outbreaks [of starvation].
Letter from Joseph Stalin to Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
Comrade Kosior!
You must read attached summaries. Judging by this information, it looks like the Soviet authority has ceased to exist in some areas of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. Can this be true? Is the situation in villages in Ukraine this bad? Where are the operatives of the OGPU [Joint Main Political Directorate], what are they doing?
Could you verify this information and inform the Central Committee of
the All-Union Communist party about taken measures.
Sincerely, J. Stalin
Evidence doesn’t point to deliberately killing some of the Soviet Union’s most loyal citizens in the breadbasket of the entire USSR, when they desperately needed to advance agricultural production (and did).
All in all, you have no idea what you’re talking about and cannot keep your talking points straight.
Your talking points are clear, but they are wrong. As I already linked:
Since you seem to want direct sources, here’s a link to 3 PDFs of Tauger’s work, and you can check historians like Grover Furr’s work on the 1930s famine as well. I simply went with Tauger because he is more accepted among liberal historians as the foremost expert, but if we reference explicitly communist historians there are far more.
For example, Chinese scholars like Li Yan and Shen Lihua both affirm Tauger’s point, that there was no deliberate famine, but instead that it was a combination of weather disaster, sabotage, and mismanagement. None of this points to genocide or settler-colonialism, in fact the Soviet government was overwhelmingly supportive of Ukraine throughout its existence and treated it like the poster child of soviet socialism.
This is just for the 1930s soviet famine, I gave far more references for Katyn, for the counterrevolutions in Czechoslovakia and Hungary, and more. You fixate on a single well-respected source and refuse to engage, again, this is no different from MAGA.
Yes, charlatans are also cited in the climate change denying, and vaccine causing autism because that’s how Wikipedia works. Since you were there, what did it say about the consensus? It’s the two first paragraphs of your own source, go ahead, I’ll wait.
You have no idea what you’re talking about, though, and it’s clear when you get your talking points mixed up and cannot even address scholarly research. Again, this is MAGA-tier.
I’m not aware of the details, so I don’t have an opinion one wya or the other. Ukrainians have committed war crimes before, no idea of genocide by strict definition.
How is that relevant to the Russian/Soviet genocides? Are you just saying that they are lynching negroes?
I do understand what consensus means. Mark Tauger, for example, is seen as the world’s foremost expert on the 1930s famine among liberal scholars, and is far from a communist. The duma does not actually back up what you believe. You really have nothing to go off of, do you? This is just MAGA-tier fact denial, it’s pure reflex.
The only guy I can cite is seen as an expert, but I won’t provide any proof, and the other 99 historians are all paid by the CIA. The Russian Duma are a bunch of Yankees and are lying, and all the documents are fabricated, please just look at this letter from Stalin which clearly exculpates Stalin.
It has religion vibes: “the Bible is true, it says so in the Bible and anything in the Bible is true”.
I cited multiple sources, and you seem to only be responding to one of my points when I responded to the entirety of yours. You also seem to have your talking points confused, because the Russian Duma does not say that the 1930s famine was a genocide:
Per Wikipedia. The right-wing post-soviet government declared it a problem of mismanagement to discredit socialism as socialism is still popular in Russia and would hurt their present capitalist class, but were insistent even then not to call it a genocide, because there’s no evidence. Even Kotkin admits that it wasn’t intentional nor engineered. You have no proof nor any idea what you’re talking about, again, it’s all reflex from you. It’s just MAGA on your part. Again, what’s the point? To convince me? Never going to happen with this level of “argument.” To convince others? Nobody else is here agreeing with you.
Since you seem to want direct sources, here’s a link to 3 PDFs of Tauger’s work, and you can check historians like Grover Furr’s work on the 1930s famine as well. I simply went with Tauger because he is more accepted among liberal historians as the foremost expert, but if we reference explicitly communist historians there are far more.
For example, Chinese scholars like Li Yan and Shen Lihua both affirm Tauger’s point, that there was no deliberate famine, but instead that it was a combination of weather disaster, sabotage, and mismanagement. None of this points to genocide or settler-colonialism, in fact the Soviet government was overwhelmingly supportive of Ukraine throughout its existence and treated it like the poster child of soviet socialism.
Israel states no genocide in Palestine. We can go home now, nothing to see here.
Lol, just having a little tantrum because even you know you’re in the wrong
Tantrum?
You really don’t have any clue what you’re talking about, do you? You were the one that brought up the Duma, I referenced actual scholars, including firmly anti-communist scholars like Kotkin. Truth doesn’t matter to you in the slightest, just using historic tragedy to bat for billionaires and a predatory system of capitalism. You aren’t even trying to convince anyone, so why bother?
I already admitted to all genocides committed by capitalists, so I don’t know how I’m defending them. You really see this a sports team thing, right? BTW lol @ “scholars”
I don’t ignore the 99%, lmao. You only count western opinion for one, and secondly western opinion is contested, with the best research pointing to it not being intentional. You have absolutely nothing.
No, I linked to half a dozen sources affirming my point, and pointed out that even Wikipedia affirms the sources as legitimate. Wikipedia is not a source. You are allergic to scholarly research.
I’m allergic to the 1% against the consensus, yes. You ignore the 99% that doesn’t suit your narrative.
To be clear, Wikipedia isn’t my source, it’s a link to essentially the western liberal bible affirming that my sources are legitimate scholars respected in their field. My sources are Mark Tauger, Grover Furr, Kotkin, Li Yan, and Shen Lihua. Still, let’s copy and paste the 2 paragraphs, including the footnotes:
This states that, among western historians (who are the only ones Wikipedia references, curiously), there is no settled debate on whether it was intentional and thus genocide, or unintentional and due to mismanagement.
Moving forward, here are the paragraphs in the Wikipedia article:
So, in total, Wikipedia does not consider the opinion of non-western scholars to be relevant in any manner, and of the relevant scholars Tauger is referenced as an authority on the matter. Wikipedia is already highly flawed by explicitly rejecting non-western scholars, but even Wikipedia’s flawed analysis does not line up with what you say, and in fact lines up with what I’ve said, which I will copy and paste yet again:
Even serious liberal scholars believe it to have been a combination of adverse weather conditions and mismanagement. For instance, Mark Tauger wrote:
Tauger believes it was a failure of economic policy, not an intentional attack on ethnic Ukrainians. The 1930s famine was a combination of drought, flooding, and mismanagement. Further, the Kulaks, wealthy bourgeois farmers, magnified matters by killing their own crops in the midst of a famine rather than letting the Red Army collectivize them. The Politburo was also kept in the dark about how bad the famine was getting:
From: Archive of the President of the Russian Federation. Fond 3, Record Series 40, File 80, Page 58.
Excerpt from the protocol number of the meeting of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist party (Bolsheviks) “Regarding Measures to Prevent Failure to Sow in Ukraine, March 16th, 1932.
Letter to Joseph Stalin from Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine regarding the course and the perspectives of the sowing campaign in Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
Letter from Joseph Stalin to Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
Evidence doesn’t point to deliberately killing some of the Soviet Union’s most loyal citizens in the breadbasket of the entire USSR, when they desperately needed to advance agricultural production (and did).
All in all, you have no idea what you’re talking about and cannot keep your talking points straight.
“My sources are legitimate and respected”
links to a source contradicting this statement
And you wonder why I accuse you of lying and your source of being a charlatan? Yes, Stalin defends Stalin, great evidence…
Your talking points are clear, but they are wrong. As I already linked:
Tauger’s work is referenced in the scholarly section of Wikipedia’s entry on the question of the 1930s famine being genocide. I also linked other historians like Grover Furr, as well as non-western historians that are less likely to be well-known enough for Wikipedia.
This is just for the 1930s soviet famine, I gave far more references for Katyn, for the counterrevolutions in Czechoslovakia and Hungary, and more. You fixate on a single well-respected source and refuse to engage, again, this is no different from MAGA.
Yes, charlatans are also cited in the climate change denying, and vaccine causing autism because that’s how Wikipedia works. Since you were there, what did it say about the consensus? It’s the two first paragraphs of your own source, go ahead, I’ll wait.
You have no idea what you’re talking about, though, and it’s clear when you get your talking points mixed up and cannot even address scholarly research. Again, this is MAGA-tier.
Scholarly research? You mean the for profit book by the controversial author “against the consensus”?
My talking points are quite clear:
Holodomor genocide.
Genocide bad.
Genocide denial bad.
Katyń bad. Invasion of czechoslovakia bad. Invasion of Hungary bad. Invasion of Afghanistan bad. Invasion of baltics bad. Invasion of…
Soviet union: genocidal colonial failed power. Russia: genocidal colonial (soon to be failed) power.
So you condemn the Ukrainian genocide in Donbas?
I’m not aware of the details, so I don’t have an opinion one wya or the other. Ukrainians have committed war crimes before, no idea of genocide by strict definition.
How is that relevant to the Russian/Soviet genocides? Are you just saying that they are lynching negroes?