Crossposted from https://thebrainbin.org/m/germany@feddit.org/t/1945027

A small town in eastern Germany banned the installation of new Holocaust memorial plaques that mark the last known residence or workplace of Jews and other victims of the genocide.

The motion was proposed by the far-right Alternative for Germany (AfD) and the centre-right Christian Democratic Union (CDU)…

  • CascadeOfLight [he/him]@hexbear.net
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    17 days ago

    CNN using ‘East German’ in the headline as if East Germany still exists and is somehow to blame for this is incredibly cynical.

    You know who wouldn’t have let this happen? The German Democratic Republic. But its forcible annexation into the Nazi successor state next door, resulting in its flooding with capitalist propaganda even as the quality of life collapsed under shock doctrine, is why there is such a resurgence of far-right politics in the east. Once again, the forcible, antidemocratic destruction of communism in Europe by the US Empire reveals itself as one of the greatest disasters in history.

    • modem_down@thebrainbin.orgOP
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      17 days ago

      You know who wouldn’t have let this happen? The German Democratic Republic.

      Maybe.

      That aside: wild take.

      antidemocratic destruction of communism in Europe

      🙄

      Soviet rule killed tens of millions. And was not democratic.

      Are you saying Gorbachev should not have pursued glasnost or perestroika?

      That the Berlin Wall should not have come down?

      That Vaclav Havel was wrong to say, “[T]he sooner, the more quickly, and the more peacefully the Soviet Union begins to move along the road toward genuine political pluralism, respect for the rights of nations to their own integrity and to a working—that is a market—economy, the better it will be, not just for Czechs and Slovaks, but for the whole world.”?

      • BanMeFromPosting@lemmy.ml
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        17 days ago

        Soviet rule killed tens of millions. And was not democratic.

        Mfw I still belive “Black Book of Communism” numbers.

        Are you saying Gorbachev should not have pursued glasnost or perestroika?

        Yes. I think the mass death, destitution and loss of QoL caused by shock doctrine - which would not have occured without Gorbachev - was actually a bad thing. I think it’s bad when we do something that creates a bunch of child prostitutes, but I suppose you’re allowed to disagree on that one.

        That the Berlin Wall should not have come down?

        I wonder why the socialists in charge in East Germany felt like they might need to have some control over who enters crosses the border from a country full of nazis who, very recently, killed all of their comrades.

        Let’s see: Nazis in Germany post-war were hired and brought directly back into:

        but other than all of that though!

        (And that’s not even mentioning the Nazis and collaborators which made up the origins of Radio Free Europe/Liberty, the “Victims of Communism Foundation” which grew out of the fascist-filled anti-Soviet “Captive Nations Lobby” headed by OUN-B Nazis from Ukraine, and all the Operation Aerodynamic, Operation Paperclip, Operation Sunrise, Operation Beladonna, Operation Lynx, etc etc.)

        Given that, I find the berlin wall to be pretty reasonable.

        • EmmiLime@lemmy.ml
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          17 days ago

          That user still hasn’t replied to this lmao but is doing to all the others, and still linking wikipedia articles without any insight as of why

          • BanMeFromPosting@lemmy.ml
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            16 days ago

            It’s so typical. I usually just call them out when I see them do it to others. It’s funny how often they just go radio silent - Or they otherwise either decide to pick one specific thing to hone in on, or they will play obtuse or they will start to google for more articles that support their claims, but they haven’t read them themselves - Something this guy does in this thread “Read the footnotes in the article I linked you”. Yeah buddy, you definitely studied all the references yourself. (And I did bring up some of the footnotes, which they also haven’t addressed lol.)

            I got a comment removed for being “uncivil” when I pointed out someone was doing this. It’s apparently such a core part of the character of liberals that pointing out the action is considered rude.

            Edit: I forgot to mention when they make up some breach of civility or indecency in order to get out of a discussion without addressing the arguments presented.

      • davel@lemmy.ml
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        17 days ago

        Soviet rule killed tens of millions.

        You really need to lay off the Black Book of Communism, a book which even the authors themselves have recanted.

      • CascadeOfLight [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        17 days ago

        That’s just simply objectively not true, and US global economic sanctions have killed over 28 million people in the last fifty years alone, according to the Lancet.

        Soviet people’s democracy was radically democratic in a way that no bourgeoise parliamentary democracy ever has been or ever could be. A cursory understanding of the origins and history of US ‘democracy’ makes it clear how completely absurd the notion is. The government is a committee for managing the affairs of the rich, and it has been since the very first moment that the worthy businessmen of the colonies gathered in each others mansions to split the profits of their stolen lands and conspire on how to keep the working class under control. The people of the United States have never decided a single thing in all of history, and the people of its subjugated colonies and vassal states have never even had the luxury of participating in its sham electoral pageantry.

        There has never been a more brutally authoritarian, bloodsoaked nation than the United States, and the USSR is not only not close, is not only the opposite, but its violent dismemberment and the carving up of its society and economy by the US worldwide secret police actually did kill tens of millions of people - 16.9 million excess deaths by 2019 in fact, again according to the Lancet.

        Furthermore, here is a map of the 1991 referendum on whether to keep the USSR

        As you can see, an overwhelming supermajority of the population were in favor of keeping the Union together. However, Boris Yeltsin’s CIA-aided, illegal dissolution of the USSR was forced through with extreme violence, during which over two thousand counter-protesters were killed - including members of the state parliament, the democratically elected body that tried to stop him!

        Here's the House of Soviets after Yeltsin ordered tanks to open fire on it after the parliament impeached him and tried to block his illegal dissolution of the Union.

        But we were talking about Germany, so did you know? A higher proportion of judges and government ministers were (‘former’) members of the Nazi party in 1973, than the proportion of active Nazis in the Third Reich in 1943? Did you know the first head of NATO, Adolf Heusinger, was Hitler’s Chief of Staff? Or how about that West Germany had a social club for Wehrmacht soldiers that had invaded Africa.

        Here's their badge!

        The Nazis didn’t lose the war except where the USSR got to them, everywhere else they were seamlessly integrated back into the western financial capitalist empire from which they had spawned. Lebensraum was inspired by Manifest Destiny and paid for by British and US banks. And now, US state media gets to come along, point at the results of their brutal political intervention, of their pet reactionaries trying to erase the history of a previous brutal military intervention, and by implication blame it on the nation they destroyed.

      • SpiceDealer@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        17 days ago

        Soviet rule killed tens of millions. And was not democratic.

        Don’t take this the wrong way but you might be in the wrong instance. Also, colonialism.

        • modem_down@thebrainbin.orgOP
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          17 days ago

          Don’t take this the wrong way but you might be in the wrong instance.

          How so? I’m not promoting any extreme viewpoints, and Lemmy.ml is the primary instance of Lemmy so surely ought to be welcoming

          Also, colonialism.

          That seems very OT. No-one in this thread is advocating colonialism, AFAICT.

              • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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                17 days ago

                You’re promoting it as an alternative to the dictatorship of the proletariat. East Germany went from a proletarian democracy under dictatorship of the proletariat to a bourgeois democracy under dictatorship of capital when reunification happened.

                • modem_down@thebrainbin.orgOP
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                  17 days ago

                  a proletarian democracy under dictatorship of the proletariat

                  Do you not see the contradiction there?

                  You’re promoting [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie] as an alternative to the dictatorship of the proletariat.

                  Like I said: point me to where I did that. Oh, you can’t, because I didn’t.

    • Geobloke@aussie.zone
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      17 days ago

      Maybe, but that state failed. Perhaps even due to exploitive practices organised by Moscow

      • Buhbyelittlegumshoe@lemmy.ml
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        16 days ago

        I would reccomend Chapter 8 of Killing Hope by William Blum. It’s all very interesting reading but this ads some complexity to the point you bring up. It’s fair to say the Soviets were harsh on the Germans with their reparations, for good reason and to the detriment of realpolitik. However when we see this as an internal failure brought on by essentially internal fuckups, we miss the external and the fact that there’s no distance between the two when you’ve been under siege since 1917. The other chapters of this book explain what happened to the other underdogs when they couldn’t keep things in perfect order.

        • Geobloke@aussie.zone
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          16 days ago

          Was it cheap l just chapter 8 I should read? Thankfully it was only 3 pages and it was a slow day at work.

          I understand the desire for reparations especially after WWII (or the Great Patriotic War if you prefer), but in contrast to the US Marshall plan it seems very short sighted.

          The author then mentions that East Germany had social services on par or in excess of West, but “the sex appeal” of higher salaries and more consumer goods in West Germany led to a brain drain in the East. To prevent this (and cross border raids) border crossings were prohibited. None of which to my western eyes make the Eastern Germany a nice place to live

          Taking all this into account it seems obvious why the the East struggled to keep up with the West and why even now, there’s an infrastructure gap between the two sides of Germany

          • Buhbyelittlegumshoe@lemmy.ml
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            15 days ago

            Yeah it probably sucked to live in the occupation zones/East Germany from 45 to the sixties. And then shit started to decline in the 70s so yeah sucked. Point is you can’t just make economic prosperity and the liberal conception of freedom (being able to say anything and get nothing) happen out of the most adverse of circumstances. The U.S.S.R. hadn’t centuries to plunder colonies and accumulate the requisite wealth to fuel a global economic system for instance. It was always against the grain.

            • Geobloke@aussie.zone
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              15 days ago

              Two counterpoints

              The USSR inherited the largest land empire in history, which was built by a feudal if not colonial power. It was self sufficient in terms of food and minerals.

              Secondly Japan was able to build an industrial power post Meiji reforms with very little in the way of natural resources. Taiwan and South Korea did so as well, albeit with financial support from the USA.

              • Buhbyelittlegumshoe@lemmy.ml
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                14 days ago

                The USSR quite notably developed from its starting point as the backwater of Europe in 17 to the second place industrial power by the 50s? I guess I would get a bit to charitable for you if I talked about the ways imperial relationships between regions and Russian chauvinism were challenged in the Soviet Union, and I don’t think this is the place for a reasonable discussion of failures like wartime deportations, but I do think relationships changed somewhat.

                But the point was the DDR, which was in the context of postwar realpolitik and animosity, simultaneously. I think Japan might be more complex because a cursory examination of the history notes their colonial adventures in Korea and China. Funny how that comes before an industrial base in merchantalist and capitalist regimes.

                • Geobloke@aussie.zone
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                  14 days ago

                  I’m not arguing that they didn’t have an industrial base, they didn’t. But they had access to huge resources, courtesy of colonisation of the previous regime, which is probably partly why they only took ~30 years to be the #2 industrial party in Europe. Probably helped that the competition had been bombed to the stone age. And circling back to East Germany, if you want to talk about colonial plundering, that the USSR stole most of their industrial capacity. Which would go some way to explain why the DDR experiment failed in ~50 years

                  Japan began industrialisation before their poorly thought out adventures, but the industrialisation probably did influence their decision making I’ll give you that.