I don’t think you understand what consensus means. Stalin defending Stalin proves very little. You are contradicted by evidence of Stalin orders uncovered by… check notes the Russian government. Those damn russophobes of the duma!
I do understand what consensus means. Mark Tauger, for example, is seen as the world’s foremost expert on the 1930s famine among liberal scholars, and is far from a communist. The duma does not actually back up what you believe. You really have nothing to go off of, do you? This is just MAGA-tier fact denial, it’s pure reflex.
The only guy I can cite is seen as an expert, but I won’t provide any proof, and the other 99 historians are all paid by the CIA. The Russian Duma are a bunch of Yankees and are lying, and all the documents are fabricated, please just look at this letter from Stalin which clearly exculpates Stalin.
It has religion vibes: “the Bible is true, it says so in the Bible and anything in the Bible is true”.
I cited multiple sources, and you seem to only be responding to one of my points when I responded to the entirety of yours. You also seem to have your talking points confused, because the Russian Duma does not say that the 1930s famine was a genocide:
The Russian Federation officially says that the Holodomor is not a genocide.[99] The State Duma passed a resolution in 2008 stating that the Holodomor should not be considered genocide, stating in part: “There is no historical proof that the famine was organized along ethnic lines. Its victims were millions of citizens of the Soviet Union, representing different peoples and nationalities living largely in agricultural areas of the country.”[100] The Russian government condemned the Soviet regime’s “disregard for the lives of people in the attainment of economic and political goals”, along with “any attempts to revive totalitarian regimes that disregard the rights and lives of citizens in former Soviet states”, while stating that “there is no historic evidence that the famine was organized on ethnic grounds.”[101]
Per Wikipedia. The right-wing post-soviet government declared it a problem of mismanagement to discredit socialism as socialism is still popular in Russia and would hurt their present capitalist class, but were insistent even then not to call it a genocide, because there’s no evidence. Even Kotkin admits that it wasn’t intentional nor engineered. You have no proof nor any idea what you’re talking about, again, it’s all reflex from you. It’s just MAGA on your part. Again, what’s the point? To convince me? Never going to happen with this level of “argument.” To convince others? Nobody else is here agreeing with you.
Since you seem to want direct sources, here’s a link to 3 PDFs of Tauger’s work, and you can check historians like Grover Furr’s work on the 1930s famine as well. I simply went with Tauger because he is more accepted among liberal historians as the foremost expert, but if we reference explicitly communist historians there are far more.
For example, Chinese scholars like Li Yan and Shen Lihua both affirm Tauger’s point, that there was no deliberate famine, but instead that it was a combination of weather disaster, sabotage, and mismanagement. None of this points to genocide or settler-colonialism, in fact the Soviet government was overwhelmingly supportive of Ukraine throughout its existence and treated it like the poster child of soviet socialism.
You really don’t have any clue what you’re talking about, do you? You were the one that brought up the Duma, I referenced actual scholars, including firmly anti-communist scholars like Kotkin. Truth doesn’t matter to you in the slightest, just using historic tragedy to bat for billionaires and a predatory system of capitalism. You aren’t even trying to convince anyone, so why bother?
I already admitted to all genocides committed by capitalists, so I don’t know how I’m defending them. You really see this a sports team thing, right?
BTW lol @ “scholars”
I’m not aware of the details, so I don’t have an opinion one wya or the other. Ukrainians have committed war crimes before, no idea of genocide by strict definition.
How is that relevant to the Russian/Soviet genocides? Are you just saying that they are lynching negroes?
I don’t think you understand what consensus means. Stalin defending Stalin proves very little. You are contradicted by evidence of Stalin orders uncovered by… check notes the Russian government. Those damn russophobes of the duma!
I do understand what consensus means. Mark Tauger, for example, is seen as the world’s foremost expert on the 1930s famine among liberal scholars, and is far from a communist. The duma does not actually back up what you believe. You really have nothing to go off of, do you? This is just MAGA-tier fact denial, it’s pure reflex.
The only guy I can cite is seen as an expert, but I won’t provide any proof, and the other 99 historians are all paid by the CIA. The Russian Duma are a bunch of Yankees and are lying, and all the documents are fabricated, please just look at this letter from Stalin which clearly exculpates Stalin.
It has religion vibes: “the Bible is true, it says so in the Bible and anything in the Bible is true”.
I cited multiple sources, and you seem to only be responding to one of my points when I responded to the entirety of yours. You also seem to have your talking points confused, because the Russian Duma does not say that the 1930s famine was a genocide:
Per Wikipedia. The right-wing post-soviet government declared it a problem of mismanagement to discredit socialism as socialism is still popular in Russia and would hurt their present capitalist class, but were insistent even then not to call it a genocide, because there’s no evidence. Even Kotkin admits that it wasn’t intentional nor engineered. You have no proof nor any idea what you’re talking about, again, it’s all reflex from you. It’s just MAGA on your part. Again, what’s the point? To convince me? Never going to happen with this level of “argument.” To convince others? Nobody else is here agreeing with you.
Since you seem to want direct sources, here’s a link to 3 PDFs of Tauger’s work, and you can check historians like Grover Furr’s work on the 1930s famine as well. I simply went with Tauger because he is more accepted among liberal historians as the foremost expert, but if we reference explicitly communist historians there are far more.
For example, Chinese scholars like Li Yan and Shen Lihua both affirm Tauger’s point, that there was no deliberate famine, but instead that it was a combination of weather disaster, sabotage, and mismanagement. None of this points to genocide or settler-colonialism, in fact the Soviet government was overwhelmingly supportive of Ukraine throughout its existence and treated it like the poster child of soviet socialism.
Israel states no genocide in Palestine. We can go home now, nothing to see here.
Lol, just having a little tantrum because even you know you’re in the wrong
Tantrum?
You really don’t have any clue what you’re talking about, do you? You were the one that brought up the Duma, I referenced actual scholars, including firmly anti-communist scholars like Kotkin. Truth doesn’t matter to you in the slightest, just using historic tragedy to bat for billionaires and a predatory system of capitalism. You aren’t even trying to convince anyone, so why bother?
I already admitted to all genocides committed by capitalists, so I don’t know how I’m defending them. You really see this a sports team thing, right? BTW lol @ “scholars”
So you condemn the Ukrainian genocide in Donbas?
I’m not aware of the details, so I don’t have an opinion one wya or the other. Ukrainians have committed war crimes before, no idea of genocide by strict definition.
How is that relevant to the Russian/Soviet genocides? Are you just saying that they are lynching negroes?