This is the kind of sentiment I had when people ask me about 日本語 regarding: “do Japanese people memorize all 50000+ Kanji?” I’m like “NO” since they don’t know all characters as only a small percentage of that is taught & used, around 2136. Although, some people learn jargon catered to specific fields (science, medicine) leading to them knowing 3000+ Kanji.
The estimated count for the “number of words” in English is 1,000,000 but that’s not an exact answer. The thing is, how many words is a native English speaker expected to know & understand? How much vocab do they teach students at school (from spelling to grammar)? After learning the alphabet, what types of words are taught across schools in the Anglosphere to kids?
For perspective, kids in Japan only learn 80 Kanji in their first year (mainly common & easy ones: 犬、校、九、女、男、名、森、右 to list a few) but the number expands through their years. I mean, something “similar” exists in English with spelling being taught at schools (teachers give a list of words to memorize spelling followed by a spelling test later).
The vocab lists expand from elementary to high school with difficult words (there’s a difference in difficulty with trying to spell a word like “animal” to “conscientious”). It’s like how a Japanese kid knows how to handwrite 海外 but has a hard time on trying to understand 傭兵 (ようへい) since 傭 is a harder Kanji to write in comparison to 海.
Many words are just awkward Cronenberg creatures made up of parts of other words, so even if I haven’t heard a word before, it’s often not hard to deduce it’s meaning from context and components.
In university I learned a bunch of new words though, like inchoate, ameliorate, atavistic and suzerainty.
And reading old, old newspapers I learned of some great words that we just don’t use anymore, like ultimo. Ultimo means “of last month” and it was used a lot in old papers because news travelled so slowly 200 years ago that often the papers were reporting on something that happened weeks ago. The article would read like “Banker John Stoakes and wife were waylaid and murdered by bushrangers on 17th ultimo, perpetrators known to constables were tracked northeast into dense scrub.”
It’s a great word, I want to see it come back.
Ultimo means “of last month” and it was used a lot in old papers because news travelled so slowly 200 years ago that often the papers were reporting on something that happened weeks ago.
And, importantly, they needed a word that was shorter than “of last month” due to printing constraints and costs. “Of last month” contains 13 characters, while “ultimo” is only 6.
A lot of words are born of necessity like that.
No, we don’t know every single word.
But I think that isn’t really what most people are actually shocked about with regards to kanji…
The thing that is shocking about kanji is “how do you even pronounce words you don’t know? How do you even try to tell someone ‘i saw this word I didn’t know.’ when it’s a bespoke character for just that word?”
They don’t realize that most kanji are built by combining different characters. So if you know the base characters that a kanji is built from. you can make a reasonable guess at pronunciation (and sometimes meaning) even if you’ve never seen the word before.
In English, we learn from a young age to “sound it out”. At first glance, kanji makes no sense in that context. We can’t understand how you would “sound out” a new kanji
So there are “root” kanji kind of like english root words?
Yes, they’re typically called “radicals” in Japanese learning circles, and other kanji can also be radicals. The whole system is fairly similar to root words and compound words, except that it scales much further up than English does.
For instance: two of “木” (tree, read as “ki”) gets you “林” (woods, “hayashi”), adding a third is “森” (forest, “mori”)
For another example: “三” (3, read as “san”, it’s also just 3 “1” kanji) with “口” (mouth, “guchi”) as well as an extra dash at the top gives you “言” (say, “ii”) whereas “千” (thousand, “sen”) with “口” (see prior example) gives you “舌” (tongue, “shita”), and print both of those complete kanji together gets you “話” (speak/story, “hanashi”)
The radicals and kanji used in both of these examples also have more meanings based on certain contexts and different readings, but these are useful ones for these examples.
Some of kanji and radicals combine in different ways, some of them change when they’re used as radicals for other kanji, and sometimes certain kanji are used as radicals based on either their meaning or their pronunciation. There’s plenty more examples of the very fractal/recursive nature of using radicals and kanji to build other kanji, but these were two that immediately came to mind.
Edit: I should also clarify that “radicals” as a Japanese linguistics term refers to the components of kanji, which 90-99% of the time refers to other kanji but sometimes includes symbols that on their own may not have any specific meanings or be otherwise usable on their own.
For instance: two of “木” (tree, read as “ki”) gets you “林” (woods, “hayashi”), adding a third is “森” (forest, “mori”)
Oh hell yeah. This rules
Only the cromulent words.
Cromulent is acceptable. A very non-cromulent word would be irregardless.
It even passes spell checks. Without having no regard? When someone uses that word, they fail my litmus test for intelligence.
Another one that irks me is conversate. You mean converse?
Preventative now passes spell check as well, even though it just means preventive.
Using less while meaning fewer is one of my biggest irks.
“I could care fewer”
Do English speakers have to learn three different writing systems, one of which is entirely disconnected from word pronunciation?
No but the language is basically german latin and greek in a trenchcoat
german latin and greek
hm… I’d say German, Latin, and Norse, for standard English? idk tho, I only speak American.
Norse is just German with extra steps.
Consider the following: Tree German: Baum, Danish: Træ
Smile German: Lächeln, Danish: Smil
Cup German: Tasse, Danish: Kop
Window German: Fenstee, Danish: Vindue
Also history. Where exactly did the Germanic influence on English come from, historically? I wrote a lot here but it was too much complexity so suffice to say: A little low German migration and a lot of Norse/viking migration, plus Normandy french (who themselves were earlier a viking influenced french)
To be fair, English spelling already is pretty damn disconnected from pronunciation.
Also to be fair, two of those writing systems are entirely phonetic, and aren’t that much bigger than our alphabet. It’s really only Kanji that’s the hard one.
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Only the really serious Scrabble players.
And even they don’t learn all the words over 8 letters, since the rack holds 7 tiles and your returns diminish quickly.
Average native English speakers know about 20.000 to 35.000 words
Yep, about that. 5000 is considered the minimum. A test I took places me at 57000 words, but I have read more English books than most people have seen, so that’s that…
A test I took places me at 57001 words but I’m an insufferable know it all so that’s that.
A friend in high school had a tshirt that proclaimed “my vocabulary is over 80,000” but idk if it was backed up
It’s not about the size, it’s how you use it
