because the system is set up not to. it’s not a real democracy.
The only way to prove that is by voting. Otherwise there’s plausible deniability.
it’s proven every 4 years then
If you think the only vote that matters is the presidential you’re part of the problem
why vote with useless ballots to vote in this genocidal capitalist or THAT genocidal capitalist when you can vote with guns and violence as thousands of years of human history have proven can actually substantiate substantial change?
Ever notice how their form of voting actually substantiated substantial changes? Hmmmmmm … 😏
Because I’m not a violent person? Believe it or not, the average American doesn’t want to murder and create death on the scale necessary for that kind of change, which would be followed by years of uncertainty and gambling that the new set are better.
Substantial change has been created, repeatedly. Suffrage, 14th amendment, the later implementing of the 14th in the 60s, the judges appointed were also appointed by people who were voted in who voted to expand gay rights and desegregate schools. Further more you have a large amount of smaller, but none the less immensely important changes like health codes and building standards that made the world considerably safer and lessened the ability of workers to be abused in a health way. Despite the recent backslides, we have immensely progressed as a net result. You have even lately expansion of socialist projects like public transit, and city land trusts which are a form of semi socialized public housing.
Believe it or not, the average American doesn’t want to murder and create death on the scale necessary for that kind of change,
The average American is more than happy to propagate death on a global scale just to maintain their current level of comfort - what you mean is the average American doesn’t want to see the required death themselves.
Cool. Same can be said of you. Put your money where your mouth is, your government is no less problematic, and overthrow them if you’re going to insult Americans for it. Especially considering the average American doesn’t support those wars. Our political system has just been waited to give certain people out sized say.
🙄
don’t be naive
You’re naive. I’ll believe you’re not when I see any other action happening, and not just yap
literally look around then. french people are setting a good example for you right now.
so does the rest of the world on occasion.
If by on occasion you mean very rarely and if by right now for the french you mean not since the 1890s. No, a little bit of protesting is not pulling guns or doing bloodshed on your government.
Which of the two pro-corporate neoliberal parties in the US care about the environment again?
The one that doesn’t actively try to destroy it.
Is this some kind of trick question?
Which one is that?
which oil executive should i vote for
Oil/lobbying industry spent decades demonizing and deflecting global activism, by portraying them as eco-extremist/ecoterrorist. the lesser known method is them funding campaigns or even companies to tell you to buy thier “low carbon emission footprint” products so they dont have to reduce thier own emissions. and also funding “protestors” to deface public property.
The one that doesn’t invade Venezuela to take their oil.
Is this some kind of trick question?
Preferably none.
But if you only have those options, you better voter for the better one of things will get even worse than they are now.
So please, go vote. Don’t pretend like it does nothing.
read W.E.B DuBois to understand why
- i do vote
- you telling me to does harm
he was even more important then MLK and was America’s best epistemologist. come back in a year
I mean, they don’t even care enough about their warmongering, lying, felonious child rapist of a president. French students are legit protesting harder than Muricans against their pedophile leader. Make it make sense.
Half the population in France isn’t brainwashed into believing it’s OK
The French don’t compromise. And there will need to be a meeting of groups to try and clear up that mess.
French police don’t usually kill protesters
They’ve already mutilated a few people. Besides, if your police are the type to pop off a few murders that should be even more reason to get mad.
The USA had the largest sustained series of protests in human history in 2020 about specifically this issue and vanishingly little was accomplished in terms of actual police reform/laws changed.
Yes, because the rich in the US know that, once people get it out of their system, they stop fighting. After all those protests, they still got to see Trump elected, both because the idiots voted for him and the DNC barreled on with Blue-no-matter-who(read: Ignore the will of the people and be complicit in your opponent’s win).
Protests need to come with SOME kind of consequences. The US does not practice consequences for the rich and powerful at nearly any level.
. Besides, if your police are the type to pop off a few murders that should be even more reason to get mad.
“If your cops are trigger happy go stand in front of their guns.”
Sounds like shit advice to me.
Something something 2nd Amendment something tyrannical regime
It’s easy to say what people should do when it doesn’t involve you, but I guarantee that if you were in our shoes you wouldn’t do shit.
I am not telling anyone what to do. I am just a bit perplexed that the main selling point for the liberal gun politics in the US always was to enable citizens to protect themself against an eventual tyrannical regime.
And now you are saying US Americans can’t protest like the French because US policemen use guns.
I live in fucking Missouri. What do you expect me to do? Do you think every gun owner is Rambo?
We have been protesting, you just think that because the media hasn’t reported on it that it doesn’t happen.
It seems to me that you haven’t put any thought at all into it. So, please, shut the fuck up and mind your own yard.
Right? Let’s stand up, to our militarized, brutal police. Remember? They buy from military liquidation.
Also, because we don’t have universal healthcare, it’s individuals against individuals with a hope of insurance. In the USA, you get hurt, show up in the ER… The nurses are chummy with the police and firemen so you’re right into their crosshairs.
Non-Americans don’t get it and they never will because they refuse to understand. They’d rather bitch at us and pretend they’re superior.
Sounds like reforming your police is radical enough.
Guess I’ll just flip my “reform the police” switch.
I think you missed my point. If you’re afraid of the police, reform is not enough.
And I think you missed my point. Comparing Americans to the French is stupid when the difference in police is so vast
What do French people eat when they lose hours at work and/or lose their job altogether? Because the US will let you and your children starve.
The rich
Most people want to eat dinner but many refuse to pray for it.
Neither party campaign’s on climate policy so the problem is the party, not the voter.
Uno reverse card
If so many people who care about the climate don’t vote, then why don’t politicians take a stronger line on the issue to appeal to them?
As we all know, if you just keep telling people to vote, eventually they’ll just be like “Yeah! I’m gonna take off work from the job that doesn’t give me time off, go find a polling place, which isn’t close and crowded because the state doesn’t run enough polling places, then try to go there in a town without public transportation! Why didn’t I think of this sooner?” Then they get there and find out that most of the local elections are uncontested and the federal ones have only a choice between no climate policy and climate policy which is insufficient but delays the necessary work until it’s too late. Then after begrudgingly voting, they realize that their districts are so gerrymandered their vote basically didn’t count anyway.
Nope, no need to change anything, we just need to keep telling people to go vote. It hasn’t worked yet, but… uh…
climate policy which is insufficient but delays the necessary work until it’s too late
Thats being very generous to the massive fracking bills and military operations (the worlds largest polluter) we see under Biden. Truth is they are both actively harmful. One might be slightly less harmful but they are both stepping heavy on the speeder accelerating us towards climate apocalypse
To be clear, this isn’t telling you not to vote. It’s telling you to do more than vote.
Yes.
That’s not really how it reads? The end of the comment is the definition of apathy. “Oh my vote doesn’t matter”…
Just because someone is accurately describing the effectiveness of a single vote does not mean they are saying you shouldn’t do it. It’s supposed to be a call to action. Like, if you really care about political outcomes, voting should be the least thing you do.
I don’t think it accurately describes a single vote. That’s like looking at a large data set and only showing a single data point. The point is that there are A LOT of votes.
It doesn’t read like a call to action to me at all… Reads like a doomer post, which is what comment OP says they’re mocking but it definitely doesn’t read that way.
Either way, I’m in agreement with both of you, but I disagree with the approach. I believe it’s the opposite of the stated intent.
Personally, I think it’s more doomer to insist that everyone beat their heads against the wall doing the same one thing that has been proven to not work than to say, “hey, this isn’t working, we should try something else.”
Totally, I don’t insist on beating any heads against any walls.
But simultaneously, I am against apathy posts.
Voting is the baseline. The absolute minimum effort required. Its the least effective yet simplest thing to do to fix things.
Anyone who doesn’t vote doesn’t get an opinion. But pretending that voting will magically fix everything on its own is equally dumb.
Given that voting doesn’t really affect policy (like at all, studies have shown this), I don’t think it can be considered the baseline. If you want to count yourself as politically active and not just passively acquiescing to the system, you have to be involved with organizing your community.
“thoughts and prayers are the baseline for gun control” and other supernatural beliefs meant to steer people away from actually changing anything
Indeed!
Nothing is substantial until it is substantiated. If these poo-liticians and the Killionaires that bribe them actually gave a fuck about the climate they would have enforced policies that substantiated substantial changes DECADES ago when we first started seeing climate change’s effects…
Havent seenthat yet…
Im starting to think that the people oughta govern themselves and get rid of these Shillionaires and their bribed Poo-litiicians and their mercenary pigs so that we can sunstantiate the substantial changes we want to see for ourselves.
We should come up with some kind of name for this new system. Perhaps we’ll use some Greek? That usually sounds cool.
Oh fuck off. Look up early voting in your area. Nearly every state has it, they are available on weekends. Stumble into one and you’ll be in and out in less than 10 minutes.
Or you can sit there as an uninformed dumbass and go “Oh woe is me! I haven’t spent 5 seconds looking up how to vote so I’m just gonna sit and complain that it’s all hopeless and pretend there are no alternatives to voting exactly on election day! Oh why must the world be so cruel!?”
Learn where and when you can vote early. You have weeks to do it. You are a piece of shit if you can’t be bothered to do that.
I have voted in most elections and my area is good about at least early voting and mail in voting. But not everyone lives in a state/city where this is the case and not everyone is in the same situation as me.
But more to the point: Go on shaming people. That has worked SO WELL in the past. Clearly there is absolutely no need to change our strategy.
EDIT: Also those policies like early voting, mail in voting, time off work, etc. are the kind of things that we need.
God, the amount of comments that rip on a reply calling the kettle black is nuts. Did you read the original comment?
Why are you defending apathy comments if you yourself believe it matters?
This guy isn’t saying it’s rainbows and butterflies.
Edit: I see, you ARE the original comment. Didn’t see that at first. Your Original Comment is an apathy post. You are shaming people yourself Pot.
This is a thread about asking why Americans don’t vote at a very high rate. I am pushing back against the sadly very common doomer narrative that people just don’t care, are lazy, or stupid. For starters it’s just wrong, but also it accepts a framing where every single individual is responsible for the current situation we’re in, and therefore they just need to change. This is an entirely unproductive way of looking at things. Individual responsibility blame games are just about making the people making them feel superior to others. It encourages you to sit back and basically just say “I guess democracy doesn’t work! I did my part!”
My comment is the opposite of advocating for apathy. I am pointing out that more needs to be done to fix this problem. If you’re in a position to be angry at people for not voting, you should go do something about that. What are your state’s electoral laws like? Could you change them? What about participation in civic organizations like unions that can organize people to vote? Are there any around you that are doing that work? Do anything other than just telling random internet strangers that they should go vote.
I agree, I’m saying your comment DOESN’T advocate for any of what you’ve described.
I’m sorry, I forgot we’re on the internet and Poe’s Law applies. Next time I’ll add a “THIS IS SARCASM :D” disclaimer to the end of my posts when relevant.
THIS IS SARCASM :D
I don’t know how you read a post going through all the structural problems with elections which culminates in a point about people not dealing with non-voting in an effective way and not get the point. Other people did.
THIS IS NOT SARCASM :(
Oh, I picked up the sarcasm at the very end… It’s just not well applied.
Sarcasm doesn’t work well as a tool to advocate… It’s great for advocating against though…
You seem to love sending absolute walls of text
No, you’re right. Clearly the strategy of telling people to go vote and then complaining about the difficulty of voting while never mentioning early voting is the right way to go. After all, that’s been the tactic for the last 5 elections, and they’ve all gone so well!
So you think the tactic of lying about how voting works is a better tactic?
Also, the last 5 elections have been shit, because the candidates and policies are all shit, not because of the voters.
Y’all live in some barbaric states that haven’t already gone to mail-in voting as standard.
You’ve had decades to do it. Your state is a real shithole if it can’t be bothered to enable this.
I think things like voter suppression, access to information also weigh a lot heavier than some might think.
I’m also kind of wondering how they came up with this number of 11 million, if people are not politically motivated and activated but are still politically conscious enough to have priorities, there are systemic issues keeping them from voting. And especially at these large numbers, simply saying ‘well they should vote’ and being angry about them supposedly not voting won’t change a damn thing.
We don’t need to yell at people. We need to fucking strategize.
there are systemic issues keeping them from voting.
Yep, starting with the shitty candidates who don’t give a fuck about the environment.
100%. The candidates need to inspire someone to vote as well and most of the goons they have been trotting out recently are more of the same. Just corporate dems looking to cash in.
Well said.
Both candidates were pro war. War is the top polluting activity humans do. People chose not to vote last time because we had absolutely miserable candidate choices, an undemocratic primary, and formal war crimes support from our own party. Anyone who wags a finger after that shenanigans and talks about climate in isolation from the rest of it is missing the forest through the trees.
Both parties are also pro record fossil fuel extraction.
How big of a record is each trying to break? Just by a hair? Or trying to break the record for years?
Why do you people always make it out like the democrats are just barely beyond perfect? The reality is they’re abhorrent monsters. Biden didn’t just make it worse by a hair, He made it fucking terrible
So, if anyone was wondering, this- is the bOtH siDEs psyop bullshit that you all hear about.
Pretty much, sadly it describes the majority of Lemmy as a whole given its foundation.
Yes. “Anyone who doesn’t vote for my party is a Russian psyop”
SOUNDS REASONABLE
All of the comments above your stupid one actually list reasons and justifications for people’s decisions.
Care to elaborate? Or are you a Schumer bot? Blue maga? You here to scare people away from the scary working class reps?
is a Russian psyop
Your words, not his. Plenty of troll factories and gullible groups around the world, but the money pours down from where it pours down.
Both sides are not the same, one has been way worse for the environment than the other, the majority of this thread is rife with ignorance, plenty of it wilful. This thread might as well be called a theater.
- https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/climate/trump-environment-rollbacks-list.html
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_policy_of_the_first_Trump_administration
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_policy_of_the_second_Trump_administration
You are both-siding this and appealing to perfection as a solution, both common appeals used in manipulation, just like the majority of this theater is doing.
No, and you are ignoring all history and past elections as are all of the other DNC shills.
There has ONLY BEEN PROGRESION TO THE RIGHT. The overtone window has shifted so far to the RIGHT because ymof you centrist fucks and your capitulating to fascists, that yes, both parties are fascist.
Your stupid argument that both parties are not the same is not something people make. If you go to a party and you want a drink, and you can only have coke or a bottle of dasani water, you are drinking a coke product. You do not get a choice eve. Though they are different.
We are at a point where we are literally running against cyberpedophile Nazis that are doing warcrimes, and establishing concentration camps and your “opposition party” is running on “restoring ACA tax credits”
Since Im just a dumb American who doesn’t understand anything, can you please explain to me why the democratic party STRUGGLES to beat what I mentioned above?
Why is their current platform not to “hold immediate trials for treason and warcrimes”, “dismantling concentration camps and locations missing migrants” " delivering free healthcare and education like 85% of Americans want" “taxing billionaires and corporations into submission”, “stopping support for the most hated country and leader in the world, Israel and Netanyahu”
Please explain
What a garbage spew of accusations. This thread is about climate change, and it’s clearly you want to derail with a lot of baggage, which ironically enough, one side is still considerably worse than the other for each and every issue you try to shotgun with. I doubt you are American, and I doubt the why of each needs to be explained in anything other than an theathered echo-chamber.
You are both-siding this and appealing to perfection as a solution, both common appeals used in manipulation, just like the majority of this theater is doing.
Again, and again, and again, and again, and again …
This is exactly why I don’t argue with these kids. It’s a massive waste of time. you’ve far more patience than I have.
I think you’re mistaken in thinking they are a child. I suspect it’s more like 3-5 psychologist sitting in a room thinking up the “perfect” response to drive their narrative.
Dismissal without rebuttal. Got it
The last rebuttal with hard facts and links just made you spew a word salad of gaslighting while ignoring anything you were offered. I don’t have any hope for you, I’m just annotating for other readers caught up in the theater.
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Nah, I don’t debate with dumbasses that say shit like “bLuEmAgA”. It’s beneath me.
War kills people and nobody pollutes less than a dead man 🤷
But do you actually have a source for that? Because agriculture is the largest driver of ecological collapse and I’d be shocked if a handful of aircraft carrier emissions outweighs tons and tons of foods and goods being shipped.
If anyone considers climate to be their highest priority, the choices weren’t even close to comparable. One was milquetoast green half measures that would kick the can a little further and one was nosedive everything off the cliff and irreversibly accelerate the climate catastrophe. If you stayed at home and were fine with the second choice you were flat out lying about your priorities.
The person you are responding to has a history of not knowing shit about what they take about.
Are they responding to you?
Yeah, it’s a good thing both candidates were the same on every single issue, too, so there was literally no difference in picking between the fascist and the non-fascist. Fantastic job recognizing your duty to stick to one single issue where you feel they were the same!
One thing you’ll eventually have to come to terms with is that it’s the government of the USA that is and has always been fascist and that the two parties aren’t going to stop the fascism that they both manage and benefit from. Biden had the Epstein files and did nothing. You think the voters are gonna stop fascism when the candidates are all fascists and fascist defenders?
Well one party didn’t try to overthrow the election, stop our votes from being counted, call for violence against their dissenters, pardon the people who tried to take control of the government by force, remove anyone who tried to prosecute them, remove anyone who didn’t fall behind them. But I mean the dems didn’t make life changing bills, only generally positive ones while having a majority of checks notes 1 seat. Republicans are an ocean of fascism and dems are a bucket, but I guess it’s better to lose all our rights, help Russia invade Ukraine, and destroy the planet instead of voting for those fascist dems :3
And then Biden took office and he and his DOJ had the full Epstein files AND Project 2025 was openly published and explained and promoted AND Biden said “we have to stop these people” and then did what? That’s correct. He did nothing. He had literal documentation that DJT committed wanton infanticide and rape and human trafficking but did nothing. Nothing. Biden did nothing with the Epstein files while Harris told immigrants not to come to the US because we were absolutely going to continue torturing them at the border and nothing was gonna stop them, just like nothing was going to stop the Israeli genocide and the American participation in it.
No, sorry. The Democrats are not “less fascist” just like the Good Cop is still a cop.
The Ds aren’t going to save Ukraine either. The parties don’t make military decisions, the military does and the parties ratify it. That’s why Obama continued Bush 2’s projects, including invading Libya, which was on Bush’s list but he never got to it. Don’t forget Obama refused to give Ukraine any weapons and declared Venezuela a national security threat after Bush 2 tried to coup Chavez. Trump was the first president to approve arms transfers to Ukraine. I know it’s confusing because you think the parties are “evil” and “almost good” but they aren’t, they are both fascist imperialists and it’s why this all happens this way.
It’s also why the Obama administration expanded ICE and DHS and then deported 3M people with Tom Homan at the helm, just like Trump used all the Obama-era policies and even appointed Tom Homan himself to run deportations (though Trump hasn’t yet caught up to Obama’s numbers).
You’re falling for the manipulation. You somehow believe that the con artist saying “that guy has a knife, I’ll protect you, just give me your wallet” even after that con artist walked away and did NOTHING about the guy with the knife.
The evidence is clear. Both parties are maintainers of the world fascist empire, and one party appeals to the voters with fear of “the other” and the other party appears to the voters with the fear of “being bad people”.
The way I see it, it’s more like they’re ok with it as long as the knife is pointed at someone else. Fascism is imperialism brought home. All that imperialism has been happening non-stop and even at home, marginalized groups have been subject to all sorts of terrible things.
They’ll call that less bad because it doesn’t affect them yet. And in the narrowest sense I guess they are technically correct exactly in the short term. But 1) It’s not better for those other people. 2) They don’t see how one inevitably leads to the other. The same tools they built to stop “our enemies abroad” can and are used to suppress dissent at home.
If a Dem ran that as a fucking bare minimum promised to reign in the military, police, and surveillance states and curb executive power, I’d be more sympathetic to the argument for harm reduction even if they didn’t agree with me on other things. But if they’re just going to keep enabling all of this, at best the only “harm reduction” happening is some people getting to ignore the suffering until next election.
at best the only “harm reduction” happening is some people getting to ignore the suffering until next election
This exactly.
if they’re just going to keep enabling all of this
It’s beyond enabling. They are architecting it, expanding it, normalizing it, and selling it.
Well if you’re not one of the people dead from ice, healthcare cuts, environmental impacts from all the solar/wind cuts, dead from cancer from the research we stopped, dead from food illness, dead in the war in Iran, dead in the invasion of ukraine, dead from measles, dead from USAID being gutted, or completely destitute from the cost of living, then yeah here’s not much “harm reduction” to be had really.
Maybe this argument works if Trump hadn’t completely ruined the world and directly caused hundreds of thousands of deaths, and probably much more when diseases start spreading because of government sponsored vaccine denial and USAID cuts.
Yeah, I mean, you basically get it, you just think Trump is somehow special. Biden authored the Crime Bill, Clinton put it into law, they ruined millions of lives, mostly of black Americans. Obama/Biden and HRC created an absolutely massive crisis in Libya by funding, arming, training, and coordinating a terroristic “resistance” and then used NATO to bomb the most prosperous country in Africa into devastation where they now openly sell human slaves. The Ukraine situation requires you to imagine history started a few years ago - Bill Clinton openly and public wanted to include Russia in NATO, even after Putin took office. Hell, Clinton was instrumental in legitimizing Putin. The invasion of Ukraine is not something Trump caused and it’s not something he can end. If you have ever studied proxy conflicts like this one, the way you end the bloodshed is by surrendering and signing a treaty. The way you kill more people is by funneling more guns and mercenaries into the proxy. We’ve known this for decades. The US military literally justified some of its proxy wars with Youth Bulge Theory, stating that when there’s too many MAMs (military-aged males) that they could pose a threat to stability so it’s important to get ahead of youth bulges, create the conflicts before they become something we can’t control, and let the conflict kill off the youth bulge. The US is fucking sick.
As for everything else you listed, there’s an equally deadly Democrat equivalent. The embargo on Cuba means that the Cuban vaccine that prevents lung cancer is completely unavailable in the US. Democrats have deported/repatriated more people than Republicans have over the last 25 years. And the reason those immigrants are coming to us in the first place is because of bi-partisan destruction of South American and African countries.
Biden expanded the ICE concentration camps Trump took over from Obama, what an odd thing to mention.
USAID was used as a front for the CIA and various regime change operations.
They both massively hurt the environment, so I dont really care that one of them does not deign to do token gestures of goodwill.
The war in Ukraine started under Biden.
The war in Iran is bipartisan.
The cost of living was already making people destitue and all Democrats had to say about it was that the economy was doing great.
Healthcare cuts? The healthcare system has been abysmal forever and all dems did was pass a subsidy for insurance companies.
Its not like the cancer research would save anyone but the wealthies in this nation.
Food illness spreads now, which is terrible. It is correct that the current regime is worse administrators of minutiae.
I’d ask you to consider how we got here. Trump didn’t just fall from the sky and started wrecking things on his own.
I could go into the whole history of the last quarter century and beyond, but to keep things simple, let’s go with a personal example:
I live in an area I would describe as blue MAGA. They regularly vote (corporate) Dem at the federal level, although local politics is very Rep dominated. My rep is a multiple term incumbent Democrat who we have tried and failed to primary multiple times, including one election where I was directly involved in the progressive opposition campaign.
As far as issues that enable fascism goes, they:
-
Voted for more ICE funding and increased border security.
-
Voted for increases to military spending.
-
Voted to support Israel’s genocide.
-
Participates in the war mongering around countries like Iran. To the extent that they had any issue with Trump’s recent war, it was a matter of poor execution rather than any principled stance against US imperialism. This matters beyond some lefty purity test. Stances like these and the policies they lead to help manufacture consent for these wars.
-
Failed to press for congress to act on it’s constitutional responsibility to stop presidents from illegally starting wars.
-
Voted on a Republican resolution to condemn the horrors of socialism at a time when right wing fascism is the dominant, pressing crisis in our country.
I could go on, but you get the gist. They’re exactly the kind of Democrat we’re talking about who enables the fascists to do what they do.
So… setting aside the fact that he’s probably in a safe seat anyway, what should I do come election day? Is voting for this person a vote against Trump and fascism? Is this harm reduction? Can I expect them to do ANYTHING to reign in this administration when they have not even tried to do so before? IF they’re not going to, what exactly is the benefit? And there are costs beyond what they will do in office. Incumbency comes with a pretty big electoral advantage. Continuing to support them makes it harder to unseat them later.
-
His prosecution was underway and he was about to be convicted and then sent to jail wtf are you talking about? And then the public elected him president, so the investigations stopped. Do you want Biden to just put him in prison with no trial? Just push the send him to jail button that even with trumps fascist army of yesmen he can’t do? Insane how these rewrites of history always come right before an election, I would’ve hoped the Ukraine strikes on the datacenters would’ve slowed it down.
Waiting for 1 dem president that murdered American citizens and sent 200b worth of armed thugs, and the national guard. I guess Obama mishandled the border, which is basically the same thing as telling people immigrants are rapists and murderers, removing as many protections for people of color, and being intentionally evil and murdering people with hired thugs.
It’s just rewriting history, Biden was unbelievably outspoken in his support for Ukraine, was sending them aid, had terrible views of Russia. With Republicans we get a war with Iran and we suck Russia off and tell Ukraine get bent. We can see what the two parties did during this war, we don’t have to guess. Democrats have been with Ukraine since day 1, Republicans against. Trump cut off all Ukraine aid as fast as he could, Biden sent it as fast as he could, there is no mystery there.
Yes. You don’t need a trial for
-a live broadcasted coup attempt and attack at the capitol that was clearly organized and called for by an already established criminal and cult leader,
a PowerPoint presentation of a coup,
a big ass binder of a coup called project 2025 with names and plans of a government conspiracy to throw a “revolution” for the rich “that will be bloodless if the LEFT allows it”.
Over a years worth of committee investigations and hearings
And all of Jack Smith’s work.
YES HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN PUNISHED SEVERELY IMMEDIATELY
What would Biden have done if Ilhan Omar organized a group of leftists to storm the capital, after a year of perpetuating a rigged voting system, and angering a crowd on tv, and publishing a binder called "Bernie’s roadmap to taxing billionaires and removing AIPAC, IT WILL BE BLOODLESS IF THE RIGHT ALLOWS IT?
What do you think would happen to us?
Same on genocide too, don’t forget!
Oh and immigration!
Loads of new .ml accounts spreading “don’t vote” around, how very unsurprising.
They had to recreate their accounts after Yandex was targeted by Ukraine.
It all makes sense now…
😂🤣😂🤣 thanks for the laugh 😂 that would be the funniest shit if true ha ha
Edit: maybe it Is true 😳
who do you think was non-fascist?
Probably the one that it can be said with certainty wasn’t going to:
- Turn ICE into the gestapo and allow them to round up immigrants without due process, put them in concentration camps, and murder people with impunity.
- Pack the supreme court with fascist friendly “justices” who immediately overturned Roe v. Wade
- Weaponize the Justice department and use it against their political enemies … including attempting to strip a state representative of her citizenship for the crime of daring to oppose them as a non-christian woman of color.
- Weaponize the FCC to control the dissemination of dissent and unflattering truth.
- Do everything in the power to cripple and eliminate essential agencies and services, leading to countless preventable deaths
- Eliminate consumer and worker protections via said defunding/elimination of agencies
- Crow about America’s need for less dependence on other countries for goods that are critical to national security … while eliminating federal programs designed to secure domestic production of those goods.
- Start an unwinnable war, raising the price of oil … and thus the price of everything
- Open, widespread corruption
- Take steps to remove separation of church and state in pursuit of a theocratic government.
- Destroy every ounce of international good will we had, including trade deals
- “Tariff” goods: raising prices drastically and pocketing the proceeds.
- Intentionally create havoc in the national and global economy in pursuit of profit via insider trading and business deals for themselves and their allies.
- Do everything possible to destroy protections for transgender and gender non-conforming people
- Drastically accelerate the scope and power of the surveillance/police state.
- Rule with absolutely zero accountability or consequences.
But hey, it’s not like we’re hearing the exact same “both sides aren’t that different” bullshit that was said in 2008, 2016, and 2020.
Do you notice how many of those hings that establishment Democrats may not have instituted but in no way are they speaking against it or planning to remove them?
They wanted the ICE gestapo to only be 85% fascist, have t said a word about GETTING RID OF CONCENTRATION CAMPS just that they are “inhumane conditions”.
You even complain about “ruling without consequences”, is that the conservative’s fault when your party REFUSES TO PUNISH THEM? the Epstein files showed that both parties partake in all of this, and all of our institutions and agencies allowed it. EVERY DEMOCRAT KNEW and no one ran on ANY of this being their priority and nothing was even leaked for campaigns. What does that tell you?
“Pack the supreme court with fascist friendly “justices” who immediately overturned Roe v. Wade” Yep, they COULD have put in a progressive or “centrist neoliberal” judge but they never did, right? RBG was just too dumb and hard headed to replace with another progressive judge right? Woopsie, the fascists that you are so determined to compromise with lied and fucked us all over anyway. That’s what happens when there is WEAK opposition
The literal plan that these fools can come up with during an existential crisis for our country is:
“Restoring affordable care act tax credits”, “addressing affordability” and “holding the crooks responsible…”
Those are their statements RIGHT NOW
Out of all of the issues you mentioned. They have that weak ass statement, and a shitty 100 day plan that they came up with 30 DAYS before midterms. THEY ARE FASCISTS
you must be talking about de la cruz or Jill Stein or cornel West.
Here’s the rub:
Most of these idiot kids are too young to vote anyway, and the rest are too stupid to recognize their own name on their mailer.
if clearly motivated people don’t want to vote for you, it’s not an indication that they should lower their standards, it’s an indication that you should have standards to begin with
it’s cute how liberals here are so resilient to reality. people don’t care for slow, steady, painfully incremental progress (if even that) when every summer is so much hotter than the last one.
There hasn’t even been slow progress for anything but shifting right. We have been losing everything from the new deal.
It’s literally their equivalent of trickle down economics. SOMEDAY IT WILL HAPPEN DESPITE ALL EVIDENCE SHOWING OTHERWISE
What’s not cute, is how there are people fucking stupid enough to not understand the simple concept that when your opponent is a anti-environmental fascist-
YOU VOTE AGAINST THE ANTI-ENVIRONMENTAL FASCIST.
It can’t get any easier, yet you people STILL don’t seem to understand it. Let me put it another way:
When you have cancer- YOU TAKE THE CHEMO. You live to fight anther day. You don’t say,
“Yeah, no. Chemo sucks. I don’t want to get sick, so, let the cancer take me.” This is PURE ignorance.
Well, if the supposed opposition is anti-environmental fascist-supporters, then they aren’t going to get people out to vote.
Your analogy is severly flawed. The Democrats are less like chemo, and more like alcohol. It makes you feel like the pain is going away, but in the end, it’s only helping the cancer.
Exactly. If they aren’t a Fetterman, then vote for them no matter what.
The only way voting will be ever be effective again is if we shift the Overton window back. The only way to do that (in regards to voting) is to vote for leftists at the local and state level. The ones that actually win are running under the Democrat banner.
That’s pretty much the only way we get out of this mess democratically speaking. That said, we do need to be doing more than just voting to have any actual chance.
Non voters aren’t motivated to vote, they’re non voters, why would anyone cater to a group that intentionally throws away any influence they could have?
Thanks, I’ll go on and implement a policy to destroy the ability to vote for as many people as possible in as many ways as I can come up with, that way they become non-voters and I don’t have to listen to them. Oh wait, that policy is already what’s happening.
Because progressives don’t fucking vote and give power to Republicans by doing so. If you refuse to participate in the system then you don’t get to be upset when the system disregards you.
Over several decades, progressives are told to vote for the lesser evil, they do, and then the lesser evil helps the greater evil silence progressive voices, so that progressives eventually find out they can’t vote anymore.
You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Yeah, and not voting will make everything much worse a lot faster.
So please, throw away your vote. The republicans will thank you.
If progressives voted in every election over the last several decades we’d have a progressive democratic party, but progressives mostly don’t vote. You sound like a republican.
I sound like a Republican when saying that the Republican have destroyed voting rights? sure buddy.
You sound like a republican because you were spouting both sides bullshit.
Incremental progress is better than actively working to make things worse, but y’know, stick to your guns and help make SURE things get worse. Good job!
i think you misunderstand
i’m not saying people shouldn’t vote (truthfully, i don’t care). i’m saying parties who want votes should have policies worth voting for.
y’all keep talking about how the “let’s not vote for the lesser evil because it’s still evil” voter strategy has lead to terrible results. why not talk about how the “let’s be the lesser evil instead of doing anything good that people would want to support” party strategy has lead to the same terrible results?
The time to make that change is before the general election.
Anytime you’re presented with two choices, take the less bad option. But if that’s the only time you bother to act, or even worse, if you don’t even act THEN to pick the lesser bad option, then you are one less vote against the worse, and therefore by your actions support it. But you already supported it if you weren’t fighting for better options.
“Well, I didn’t pick which restaurant to visit very well, and this restaurant only has moldy fruit or sandwiches made literally from shit. I don’t like either option, so I’m just gonna eat whatever they bring me”. Sure, it’s not a great analogy in the sense that picking a different restaurant is not so easy in the context of politics, but I think it makes the point - always choose the lesser bad option. I’d rather eat the moldy fruit (we’re assuming that we must eat something in this metaphor) than the literal shit. And then work harder to try and prevent us from going to this restaurant next time. But if you are presented with the two bad options and one is worse, not picking an option is fucking stupid.
It blows my mind that these people just won’t even try to understand such a simple concept. Their entitlement, alongside their little purity test cost us not only our democracy, but is RAPIDLY forwarding the environmental damage they pretend to stand against.
It’s mind-numbing dumbassery.
Your point was well said, but it will sadly fall on deaf ears. They don’t want to be told the right way to do things, they want to be told the conveinient way to do things. The way that makes them look good. The way that doesn’t require an effort-
….the way that doesn’t involve sacrifice.
Their entitlement, alongside their little purity test cost us not only our democracy
so, people who aren’t content with atrocious (when, don’t they know that it could be cataclysmic???) are a sizeable enough population that they can sway elections… yet, seemingly, it’s not worth it for democrats to cater to them by not being atrocious? which is it?
you talk of effort and sacrifice. for what? voting? calling people dumbasses on the internet because they checks notes express empathy for those who refuse to settle for eternal mediocrity?
“is it so hard to understand that trump is worse” is it so hard to understand that people who see other people being bombed, forests burning, rights taken away, and their lives getting steadily worse, under liberals and conservatives alike, are not gonna fucking bother at some point? people are not game theory machines, “your life gets worse” vs “your life gets worser”, despite having an obviously correct answer, is not a motivating choice, what a surprise
if you believe in saving democracy so much, demand more out of your elected officials instead of demanding less of people who are tired of suffocating under the boot. but, maybe that requires too much effort, and involves too much sacrifice, idk
You know how you demand more from your elected officials? BY FUCKING VOTING IN THE FUCKING PRIMARIES YOU FUCKING DONKEYS.
Yeah, as a rule, I don’t read the propaganda you people believe in. Your job is to spread your bullshit and move on, my job is to calm it out.
“my job is to calm it out”
Is that your bot programming? That’s your job?
Progressives or others that are critical of the establishment democrats have given you ESSAYS of evidence all throughout here and you just say, “nope, you’re all dumb if you don’t vote for my party”
But I guess that could be indictive a being a bot OR just being an actual establishment democrat
It seems like you actually believe anyone who thought Harris was a bad candidate voted for Rump?
That’s so simpleOr they just didnt vote, yes.
2024 was a colossal failure for months before the election. They gave trump legitimacy by backing down “Sleepy Joe” biden, but didnt do it quick enough to hold a primary.
Democrats are fighting on being “the other guy” but thats not an identity. Theres a reason people love mamdani so much, and its because he has values.
But what if they voted for Harris, while thinking she was a terrible candidate? Did that possibly not occur to you?
Millions didn’t. Did that occur to you?
Of course. That’s why I expected her to loose.
Typical MAGA.
Your inability to make the bare minimum effort necessary to stand in front of fascism seems to have also allowed you to not know or care what the outcome was-
Since you seem to like simplicity so much,…
How about you stop pretending any of this matters to you since you have proven via your conscience choice you made to not bother yourself with it.
Simple as……
What choice did I make?
What minimum effort did I not do?Voting for the candidate that does less harm to the environment.
Maybe not you, but plenty others did. And that is why we got trump.
I think you answered my second question? I’m going to assume you did.
Of course that’s why we got Rump. He got more votes. Harris ran against a convicted felon, fraudster, and rapist. It should have been a cake walk to beat him. It was the Dems campaign to loose. She lost anyway, because she was a bad cantate, and the Dems fucked up massively. You can’t blame the reff (the voters) when one team played so obviously badly.
It’s a two party system and you have three choices.
Vote A
Vote B
Don’t vote.
Not voting is still an action. It means either option is fine, otherwise you would have voted for a specific candidate
But what if they voted for Harris, while thinking she was a terrible candidate? Did that possibly not occur to you?
Then they liked her more than the other options.
I know we’re talking about Americans, but this is a simple enough concept. Even for them.
Yah I kind of thought that was simple enough that nobody would think it was what I was asking about.
The whole idea I apparently need to directly explain is, someone can believe that she was and is a bad candidate, while also voting for her. That we can call out her terrible campaign, and how bad the Democrats are at this game; Wanting and hoping for them to be better. You can support your team, while complaining about how much they suck. Too many here seem to think any criticism of any Democrat is support for Republicans. But that kind of simplistic black and white thinking is what Republicans do. I’d want more for us.
This has been the case since the 1990s, when does it deliver, can you show us?
What have working class people GAINED while settling for the “lesser of two evils”?
Where are the incremental steps to the left that you proclaim exist?
I did vote so this isn’t my personal opinion. I’ve been told many times it’s “voting for the lesser of two evils, they’re both evil and I don’t agree with either.” There’s no real sense of choice. I can see it. It very much feels like that South Park episode where they have to vote for the school mascot. Do you want it to be a Giant Douche or, a Turd Sandwich? And then at the end it was all for nothing because they don’t change their mascot so it was all pointless.
Edit: you guys can call me stupid all you want. It doesn’t change the fact that I’ve heard this from coworkers and family repeatedly. I did vote. In fact, I’ve already voted in my primaries. The question was “why don’t people vote?” I gave the answer of why I personally have been told by people they don’t vote. Not liking my answer doesn’t change the reality of it. I work in blue collar work. It’s a very common view in my area. Or, they are pro Trump.
My personal opinion on why they don’t vote or, don’t vote in favor of things they support, they generally don’t want to take the time to educate themselves. And for others, they don’t want to feel responsible for voting when their candidate turns out to be nothing like they promised.
Hey heads up the “both sides” argument makes anyone who says it sound fantastically silly and at worse stupid.
There’s a very good reason for the sentiment and why people feel such a sense of dejection and apathy. Then it gets met with smug ripostes like the “bOtH sIdEs” spongetext shit or plain mockery as if it’s something that just appeared out of nowhere.
It’s just typical Democrat arrogance assuming that they are entitled to peoples votes without having to offer any material change, it also ties into why progressive and leftist candidates have to struggle to break through because they’re fighting their own party first and foremost before they even get to fighting Republicans.
Voting for ‘the lesser evil’ is what continues the status quo, it keeps duopolies in power around the world, it definitely isn’t just a usa issue.
If people are willing and capable of seeing the duopoly as one entity, they realise that the duopoly never loses… that doesn’t sound very democratic, because it isn’t, duopolies are a right wing con.
Democracies have better choices, but so many countries just keep voting ‘the lesser evil’, and ‘evil’ in continuously.
I too have heard that argument but unfortunately those are usually the people who won’t see reason. I rarely try to argue with them unless they express some type of will to learn or seem like they’re questioning their beliefs. Some people just like to complain and refuse to help themselves, sad but true.
The real solution would be having more than 2 parties. I mean, TECHNICALLY we do but not really.
Because no current system has offered a viable path. Sustainability, which includes climate and all the other factors, will require everyone to live with less to ensure everyone has enough of what matters.
Our politics, our economics our sociology consider asking the rights questions as radical, precicely because it threatens the wealth, power and prestige of those who have it. The elite would rather the poor who can’t cope, die in order to bring consumption to sustainable levels. Case in point, Bill Gates will write a book on what other people should do about climate change, yet live the hipocrisy of owning a small private fleet of jets and helicopters amd a leasing company for his slightly less elite customers.
Ecological economics calls this malinvestment. Not misallocation (suboptimal) but malallocation (actively hurts our goals) The resources of those jets could have built passivehouses, sustainable farms, sufficiency across countless domains. His communications could have been virtual. I think he is smart enough to know how to use Teams. But hypocrisy is not a mistake for these people.
The democratic choices of bad and worse don’t reflect viable paths. Worse will build autocracy that means profligacy for the ingroup, then doom for the vile and faster doom for everyone else. Cutting the outgroups down as the definition of sustainable shrinks and then cutting potential in group rivals.
The bad choice is to do the same thing, but instead of an in group and outgroups, we’ll have an in, an out and a middle class. The 2/3 will make the same decisions, but trim with a few select sacrifices across the three groups as the pie shrinks.
Bad and worse is not a viable choice. Even the greens where they exist, haven’t communicated a viable return to sustainable for all. They only hint at a portion of the changes required.
Okay so then which path has the more harm reduction?
We’ll have to heavily tax the wealthy, nationalize a few critical industries, or at least parts of them. Which and how much is always context dependent. It goes to fund a robust but unglamorous social safety net that covers housing, food, water medicine, parks and libraries etc… A basic subsistance for everyone. Could be a UBI, could be other forms.
Then we actively curb the most harmful activities with a heavy regulatory framework, like, but not limited to ending fossil fuels asap. Nationalizing it takes private wealth out of the equation so a more balanced conversation can be had with the public. Yes we want to end its use asap, but boy do we love fresh vegetables at the grocery store. A sober rational policy of asap, but not one that interferes qith the social safety net.
It’s an oversimplification, but what do you want from a post.
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They probably let idiots/bots convince them not to vote over some culture war bullshit or wedge issue designed specifically to keep them away from the polls.
